[DEBATE] Is KGR Really a Waste of Time?

Hi BHW,

Browsing other marketing forums I got to a thread I am following from a guy that states the KGR method is a "waste of time and money".

And he goes into saying this...

The google search modifier method is pretty old school and doesn't really work now as Google understands searcher intent these days.

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This was after I posted how I like to include the "allintitle" Google search operator to "size" the competition for any given keyword.

He goes on also saying...

I basically do a full breakdown of why it's not really efficient anymore and why methods such as KGR and my own old keyword research method that I posted on Reddit like 3 years back are basically useless now and give a ton of false positives usually resulting in a ton of wasted time that could have been better spent elsewhere.

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Then, he posted this video...

I??ve been following the journey published by @Scrox and by @SEOMadHatter and I am also a big fan of @Holzr??s post on keyword research and even a KGR case study from @nichexposure so I am looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say about this.

He makes legit points.

Roger Marquez said:

Hi BHW,

Browsing other marketing forums I got to a thread I am following from a guy that states the KGR method is a "waste of time and money".

And he goes into saying this...

Click to expand...

I'm actually on BHW too, pretty sure you have posted in my journey thread on here in the past as I remember your avatar. There's literally examples in that video that you can type into Google and check for yourself.....

Edit - Could you post a screenshot of the analytics from your domain where you are using your allintitle method please?

It depends.

It can be a very low cost way of identifying areas of your niche which are undeserved + you can get started quickly if you are using parasites etc.

If you find a bunch of KGR keywords and then do competitor analysis and see if there is not a lot there then not much to lose.

I also believe KGR or another type of magic keywords research is useless, I believe in EAT and covering the topic. BUT, that does not mean I am right and you are wrong or vice-versa, we have different opinions and experiences. Keep it cool buddy, we will never know the magic sauce.

Here, keep this gif for me.

i'm really interested

I think it depends..
I don't know how or why but some kgr keyword work and some are useless..

I know of @Shaunm and his YouTube but I haven't watched this one. From what I know of his projects his strategy is very different to my own.

The whole KGR thing was a smart move by Doug to come up with something catchy for people to talk about. Who doesn't want quick SEO results especially in a time when effective backlinks are getting more expensive? It's a marketing stunt for him to sell affiliate stuff. Can't fault him for that. I don't know how much faith I put into testing these numbers or how much (if anything) he actually makes from SEO himself.

I don't put a whole lot of faith into the exact numbers Doug came out with. I stick with them at the moment purely for testing consistency but I strongly suspect you'd get similar results loosening them up a bit. I also don't care that Google gives estimated allintitle results and the traffic numbers are largely estimations at that point.

I really don't care enough about a tiny BST to advocate someone else's marketing stunt but at the end of the day, it's not some hoodoo magic formula. Just sound logic. These phrases have less competition actively competing for them and convert well because you know exactly what they're looking for.

Is it the only way to do SEO? No.

Is it ROI+? God yes. I'm making sales in some very competitive markets I'd never get near targeting the high competition phrases. I've got several grand going into content over the next couple of weeks because I think I'll see more of a return on that than I will on backlinks.

I'm not saying it's the best way to do SEO but I currently feel like I'm shooting fish in a barrel.

As mentioned it's hit and miss, but a great starting point. I've began adding my own layers which are just as simple.

1) Keyword phrase with under 1m competing sites.
2) KGR compliant.
3) Under 50 "broad match" competing sites.

Yes, much more difficult to find, but these stacked up increases ranking top 3 massively. I've also discovered using keyword suggestion tools and scraping doesn't work with this. I have to manually dig, occasionally throwing in some unusual words that KW tools can't identify.

The post I'm working on now follows this approach and has 210 m/s, 0 allintitle, 0 broad match and under 0.5m competing sites. Very confident of ranking #1.

In some niches it's very difficult to find even enough KGR based keywords, so before diving in to a new niche it's a good idea to see if it's viable, if not you have more off page work to do.

@Roger Marquez Any chance of that screenshot of your analytics for your domain where you are using KGR/allintitle keywords? Just curious on the kind of growth you are seeing.

SEOMadHatter said:

I've got several grand going into content over the next couple of weeks because I think I'll see more of a return on that than I will on backlinks.

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Just out of curiosity, how come you are selling 43 KGR keywords in the drone niche in your BST that has some solid commission potential for a low, one-time price of only $29.99? If you are putting thousands into content for KGR articles then why not action them and have the commissions rolling in for years to come?

Shaunm said:

@Roger Marquez Any chance of that screenshot of your analytics for your domain where you are using KGR/allintitle keywords? Just curious on the kind of growth you are seeing.

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Shaunm said:

Edit - Could you post a screenshot of the analytics from your domain where you are using your allintitle method please?

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If I had any sort of data to back something up I wouldn??t have the need to open this thread/debate.

No need to get defensive here.

I opened this thread because I was a bit surprised to read those comments from you given that you??re someone whose opinion I respect a lot. And, at the same time, I also wanted to see what others have to say about it. People whose opinions I also respect a lot when it comes to keyword research.

Roger Marquez said:

Having said that, I would like to add a little process I like to run when determining whether or not a keyword is worth targeting based on its competition levels.

I like to run a Google advanced search operator + keyword to see how many pages are actually targeting/optimize for the main keyword.

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You suggest that you use allintitle "when determining whether or not a keyword is worth targeting based on its competition levels", that's why I was curious to see your analytics as you make it sound like its working for you. I was curious to see your growth for your site as you don't actually say you have no successful projects using the method in your post on the other forum. In my experience, especially after the 4th May Google update last month, allintitle and KGR are essentially useless these days, they have had the flaws I point out in the video above for a year or two now but they took another hit last month.

From what I am seeing in the SERPs after the update last month, YouTube, Reddit, Quora, Amazon, and Pinterest have been given a ton of additional weight pushing them higher in the SERPs and taking the tops spots for tons of keywords. As you can probably guess, the majority of the posts on sites like Reddit and Quora for informational keywords are general threads and don't actually target the specific keyword so will likley not have the keyword in their title. When it comes to the buyer intent keywords, Amazon is currently just having their highest upvoted, long-form reviews ranked and again, don't have the keyword in their title either. This basically adds another nail into the coffin of allintitle and KGR.

Shaunm said:

You suggest that you use allintitle "when determining whether or not a keyword is worth targeting based on its competition levels"

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During the past year, I??ve gathered a lot of info in regards to keyword research from mainly reading this forum and other resources (including you) and I build-up like a guide or "roadmap" to follow.

I do use allintitle as part of my overall keyword research process especially when it??s time to "size up" the competition for any given keyword but it??s not; in any way, the core of my entire process.

That??s why I was surprised to read your comment and wanted to get feedback from the BHW community.

Again, I only did this because I respect your opinion a lot.

Shaunm said:

In my experience, especially after the 4th May Google update last month, allintitle and KGR are essentially useless these days, they have had the flaws I point out in the video above for a year or two now but they took another hit last month.

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Noted!

Shaunm said:

From what I am seeing in the SERPs after the update last month, YouTube, Reddit, Quora, Amazon, and Pinterest have been given a ton of additional weight pushing them higher in the SERPs and taking the tops spots for tons of keywords. As you can probably guess, the majority of the posts on sites like Reddit and Quora for informational keywords are general threads and don't actually target the specific keyword so will likley not have the keyword in their title. When it comes to the buyer intent keywords, Amazon is currently just having their highest upvoted, long-form reviews ranked and again, don't have the keyword in their title either. This basically adds another nail into the coffin of allintitle and KGR.

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So, it will still be relatively easy to outrank these results?

On a side note, this topic got my attention also because I am just finishing "niche hunting" and I am heavily focusing my keyword research on the KGR method. I have narrow it down to 7 potential niches with lots of potential and low competition levels.

I also found dozens of keywords that fall "too perfectly" into the KGR criteria and, while others don??t, they still show very decent and low competition levels after taking a closer look at the SERP and the backlink profiles of a few top-ranking pages for any given keyword.

Not sure what niche to target now as I am second-guessing the entire process now. Hopefully, I will sort it out in the next few days.

One thing is for sure, I will document everything and perhaps I can come back to this thread and post some actual screenshots.

Cheers!!!

Since I'm replying anyway, @OP whoever said Google understands search intent more than ever is entirely right. Fairly sure I've mentioned RankBrain a couple of times and there are phrases I'll avoid if I think Google is completely ignoring the phrase but I've had a very high success rate so far.

If you search 'how do I remove blue widgets from my ass?' then the homepage of bluewidgets.com is related but doesn't match their actual query. The actual keywords matter less than ever before but you're still aiming for search intent most of your competitors aren't aware of.

Shaunm said:

Just out of curiosity, how come you are selling 43 KGR keywords in the drone niche in your BST that has some solid commission potential for a low, one-time price of only $29.99? If you are putting thousands into content for KGR articles then why not action them and have the commissions rolling in for years to come?

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Fair question.

I moved away from product review sites about 7 years ago. Other markets are more profitable and a lot more interesting to work with and I've no shortage of keywords for ones I'd rather work with. I've also had issues with Amazon in the past which means I'd probably have to go chasing individual affiliate programs for every market. The sensible decision would probably be to use them myself but I have enough projects going on, the thought of adding a product review site I wouldn't enjoy just fills me with burnout before I even start.

That BST is not something I keep very up to date. It was started on a bit of a whim to see what marketing around here would be like. Last month the KGR traffic alone made at least 3x the profit that thread did and those sales didn't involve me having to actually do anything. I've no real incentive to convince anyone that I'm right but it's working for me.

dandan594594 said:

As mentioned it's hit and miss, but a great starting point. I've began adding my own layers which are just as simple.

1) Keyword phrase with under 1m competing sites.
2) KGR compliant.
3) Under 50 "broad match" competing sites.

Yes, much more difficult to find, but these stacked up increases ranking top 3 massively. I've also discovered using keyword suggestion tools and scraping doesn't work with this. I have to manually dig, occasionally throwing in some unusual words that KW tools can't identify.

The post I'm working on now follows this approach and has 210 m/s, 0 allintitle, 0 broad match and under 0.5m competing sites. Very confident of ranking #1.

In some niches it's very difficult to find even enough KGR based keywords, so before diving in to a new niche it's a good idea to see if it's viable, if not you have more off page work to do.

Click to expand...

I'm curious, you compared this extra filtering at any kind of scale?

There's obviously going to be other factors at play both on and offsite but my success rate has been high enough that I've been wanting to go the other way and loosen these numbers a bit to help find more phrases within a niche.

Roger Marquez said:

So, it will still be relatively easy to outrank these results?

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It's too early to say unfortunately but I really don't think that it will be. More and more people are starting to add domain search modifiers to their searches like above and I'm guessing that its just adding more weight to platforms like Quora and Reddit. The last day or so I have been doing keyword research and if Reddit or Quora are on the first page I am now checking to see how many upvotes and comments the post has and how long the post is word count wise to try workout but it's going to need a fair bit of testing. I might actually sign up for CCarters tool to check the SERP history of some of the keywords for my informational domain as I'm sure Reddit and Quora never used to be on the first page for its search terms but I'm guessing the update changed it.

Shaunm said:

It's too early to say unfortunately but I really don't think that it will be. More and more people are starting to add domain search modifiers to their searches like above and I'm guessing that its just adding more weight to platforms like Quora and Reddit. The last day or so I have been doing keyword research and if Reddit or Quora are on the first page I am now checking to see how many upvotes and comments the post has and how long the post is word count wise to try workout but it's going to need a fair bit of testing. I might actually sign up for CCarters tool to check the SERP history of some of the keywords for my informational domain as I'm sure Reddit and Quora never used to be on the first page for its search terms but I'm guessing the update changed it.

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To be honest, I never understood why results from platforms like niche related forums, Quora, or Reddit were considered to be "weak" results and/or something that could be easily outranked.

I??ve found answers on any of those platforms to be a lot more insightful and matched search intent (at least my search intent ) a lot better than many of the articles ranking above them.

In fact, I used to post a lot on Quora. Not to drive traffic or anything but because I liked it and even though I haven??t been active there in like months my answers are still geting thousands of views.

In fact, I got my first ever affiliate commission from there
Anyway, these have got me a lot to think about moving forward...Thanks!!!

In my opinion, the method allintittle is useless. You have to check another variables like DA And PA. I have seen examples where if I do my choice based in allontittle this will be imposible. But in fact this does not happen.

SEOMadHatter said:

I know of @Shaunm and his YouTube but I haven't watched this one. From what I know of his projects his strategy is very different to my own.

The whole KGR thing was a smart move by Doug to come up with something catchy for people to talk about. Who doesn't want quick SEO results especially in a time when effective backlinks are getting more expensive? It's a marketing stunt for him to sell affiliate stuff. Can't fault him for that. I don't know how much faith I put into testing these numbers or how much (if anything) he actually makes from SEO himself.

I don't put a whole lot of faith into the exact numbers Doug came out with. I stick with them at the moment purely for testing consistency but I strongly suspect you'd get similar results loosening them up a bit. I also don't care that Google gives estimated allintitle results and the traffic numbers are largely estimations at that point.

I really don't care enough about a tiny BST to advocate someone else's marketing stunt but at the end of the day, it's not some hoodoo magic formula. Just sound logic. These phrases have less competition actively competing for them and convert well because you know exactly what they're looking for.

Is it the only way to do SEO? No.

Is it ROI+? God yes. I'm making sales in some very competitive markets I'd never get near targeting the high competition phrases. I've got several grand going into content over the next couple of weeks because I think I'll see more of a return on that than I will on backlinks.

I'm not saying it's the best way to do SEO but I currently feel like I'm shooting fish in a barrel.

Click to expand...

So I'm relatively new to SEO but I gather from your comment that this method that OP is talking about is related to finding low competition keywords in a niche that have some type of low consumer intent that don't get targeted much. Is that a correct understanding?

If so what's the step you take in monetizing it? Do you have to work some magic on that page to try and get them into the mindset of buying or taking action in some way that you can monetize? Thanks in advance!

Shaunm said:

It's too early to say unfortunately but I really don't think that it will be. More and more people are starting to add domain search modifiers to their searches like above and I'm guessing that its just adding more weight to platforms like Quora and Reddit. The last day or so I have been doing keyword research and if Reddit or Quora are on the first page I am now checking to see how many upvotes and comments the post has and how long the post is word count wise to try workout but it's going to need a fair bit of testing. I might actually sign up for CCarters tool to check the SERP history of some of the keywords for my informational domain as I'm sure Reddit and Quora never used to be on the first page for its search terms but I'm guessing the update changed it.

Click to expand...

This is actually related to something I've been wondering. If you're doing keyword research and come across Reddit as a top result is there a general formula you can use to determine how hard it would be to eventually outrank? I gather by your post that length and number of upvotes matter. Does the subreddit it's in and it's subscriber count matter too? Thanks!